My friends, I'm sure you've noticed I'm a bit biased toward Methos, and this is the episode that converted me after four and a half years in DM's camp. I watched it again last night, and in light of this week's discussion on the Forum, I'd like to toss out a few issues for debate. 

The relationship between Kronos and Methos fascinates me. Some have proposed that Kronos was the older of the two, but I have never gotten that impression. My perception is that Kronos is indeed younger and perhaps considerably so. He is, however, much stronger/more dominant than Methos. In dog training, you must learn to "establish an Alpha", that is a dominant dog in the pack to which all other dogs will look for direction. That Kronos is the Alpha of the horsemen is obvious, but how does Methos fit in?

I can imagine a scene thousands of years ago where one just happens upon the other one. Kronos wants a head, and Methos wants to keep his own. He cleverly ensures his own survival by creating for Kronos cruel and vengeful new ways to inflict pain, torture, and suffering. (Taking my head would be so dull, let me show you how to use terror and extortion on mortals to double your pleasure and double your fun!) How can Kronos kill someone so calculating? 

It seems so plausible to me when Methos tells Cass she lives as long as she pleases him that he's really just parroting something Kronos has told him about their own relationship. Notice how quickly he backs down when Kronos wants her. Later, in Seacouver, Kronos knows Methos has never challenged him and never will. He disarms Methos without even breaking a sweat. The unspoken taunt is You-couldn't-then-and-you-still-can't-now. 

Silas and Caspian seem peripheral. When they are fighting in the FB, Methos swoops in with a blade to break it up, and although they pause (because he is a step above them in the horsemen hierarchy), they don't really end the fight until Kronos enters the picture. He is the ultimate authority in the camp. 

Our Noble Hero, DM has almost the same effect on Methos that Kronos does, in that he can make Methos do what Mac wants him to do, simply because Mac wants him to do it. DM is another Alpha!

I continue to have the deepest admiration for Methos, because he always stays absolutely true to his primary purpose: TO LIVE! When he told Byron in MP, "You don't understand, I don't want a tombstone," I shivered. Whether Methos is good, evil, or indifferent is irrelevant. After 5000 years, his wisdom is this: Life. At any cost. 

OK, I could go on and on for pages like this, but it's time to open the floor to you, my esteemed fellow Forumlanders. Any thoughts?

Tabby

You have my agreement that Kronos established himself as an Alpha. And DM becomes the present day Alpha. But, I disagree that Methos prime objective is to Live. The first time he meets DM, the impression is that he already knows DM. My presumption would be that he has read DM chronicals. After his fight with Kalas he offers his head to DM.This is the first indication that he is saying his(Methos) life is less important than DM. Another time is FUOT. HE is willing to fight with the implied thought that DM would lose. He stopped the fight between Kalas and DM. He tells DM to Live, Grow stronger, Fight another day. He may have said to Byron that he didn't want a tombstone, but I think that has changed since DM. He has said that his 'standard response to unforseen dilemmas perfected over the centuries is to do nothing' , but the reality is that he has done almost anything to protect and advance DM as the 'only one'. He is an iron fist in a velvet glove. While saying yes to Kronos he helps DM. He saved Cassandra. He bides his time and it's all to the benefit of DM. He is the *old master* subtly pushing DM toward what he(Methos) has decided *should* be his (DM) goal.

I truly believe that Methos wants Duncan to be "the only one" and would willingly give himself to Duncan to achieve that goal.

Seeking Peace in all things,

JewelsII of Clan DOTD

I also found the Methos/Kronos relationship quite fascinating, and I have posted about it before at length. I agree with your idea that Kronos is younger, and a dominant personality. But I also see him as a cruel, sadistic person, who spotted Methos right off as a perfect victim, and took great joy in tormenting him. I believe Kronos needed Methos more for the pleasure he derived from this torment, than for any talents Methos had as a strategist. Kronos was not deficient in the brains department--he had plenty of imagination when it came to thinking up evil schemes. And Methos' behavior while around Kronos is definitely all about survival. He does whatever he has to in order to placate the man who has the power of life and death over him. 

But I disagree that DM manipulates Methos. It is quite the other way round. Methos is the master manipulator--he learned it from Kronos, and no one, especially DM, can keep up with the complexity of Methos' machinations. Duncan is definitely an alpha male. He has the leadership qualities of one, and the will, and the physical presence. He was raised as a clan leader, a very take-charge guy, to whom people give their trust and admiration. Methos is a behind-the-scenes kind of guy, and his true motives and feelings are masked behind so many layersof camoflage, that I am not sure even he comprehends them all. The only thing that seems consistent about him is his determination to keep DM alive. For this, he risks his own life, and even kills. Yet we still do not know his reasons, and we likely never will. I love him for his mystery, and his mercurial personality. But I would never trust him. For him, the truth is as liquid as mercury, and just as variable in its properties.

...was that 1.Methos was an Immortal, like Kronos, and understood what that meant. 2.Methos was sensitive, and had complex feelings which could be played upon. 3. Methos was extremely intelligent and imaginative, so he would *get* every nuance of the torture being applied. 4. Plus, I think Kronos instantly sensed Methos would always submit to survive, and so would pose no threat to Kronos or to his authority in the group.

: And Methos didn't attempt to keep DM out of the situation long, either. Granted, he was going to just leave town in the beginning, but Kronos wanted DM's head from the start, also. And notice Kronos was very confident that Methos could and would take it? Interesting point, there. And Methos could have kept silent, put DM off in the parking lot, but instead, he drew him further into the game.

I think Kronos wanted to make Methos take DM's head as a means of reasserting his authority over Methos, and because he knew it would hurt him to do so. More cruelty from Kronos. And since Methos knew Kronos wanted DM's head and there was no way to dissuade him of it, maybe the best way he could think of to to protect DM (and help himself, too of course) was to be sure DM was on the offensive, and had his *passion* aroused against Kronos. With Kronos around, no one was really safe, anyway. Methos had to do the best he could with bad circumstances. Obviously, he was looking out for himself, too, but he also risked his neck to feed DM information.

I believe Kronos needed Methos more for the pleasure he derived from this torment ... Methos' behavior while around Kronos is definitely all about survival. He does whatever he has to in order to placate the man who has the power of life and death over him. Methos is the master manipulator--he learned it from Kronos, and no one, especially DM, can keep up with the complexity of Methos' machinations ... Methos is a behind-the-scenes kind of guy, and his true motives and feelings are masked behind so many layersof camoflage, that I am not sure even he comprehends them all. 

I always admire your posts and your ability to express your thoughts. I agree with your analysis of the Methos-Kronos Methos-MacLeod relationships. Kronos did not need Methos for his brains: I believe Kronos expressed this idea only for the benefit of Kaspian and Silas. Both of these psychos respected and feared Methos because in their minds Methos was the 'man with the plan'. I believe Kronos set this up to keep them from challenging Methos; thereby keeping Methos alive for Kronos enjoyment. I'm not saying that Kaspian or Silas would have been able to kill Methos, only that Kronos needed a cohesive team and this was his way of creating one.

Only Methos knows Methos (although I'd like to know him in great detail *BEG*) Anyone looking into him would only see the image he would project for them.

I agree with the idea of Methos having been abused, possibly before his first death. I don't think that was his relationship with Kronos, though, at least not to begin with. This past abuse would affect the way he dealt with everyone, not just his abuser. It's been stated many times that in Duncan is still very much a product of his mortal life, even Amanda is still a product of her mortal life. There is no reason to think Methos is any different. After decades and then centuries together, Kronos would know just what to do to push Methos buttons, the kinds of threats to use.

Methos was not, I believe, an innocent in that relationship. I think that at the point they got together they fulfilled some sort of a need in each other. After a certain point in time, however, their needs began to diverge. (Being a Beatles fan, I like to call this my Lennon/McCartney theory) Lennon and McCartney got together because they fulfilled needs in each other. They each said their worlds changed the day they met each other. They were once so close they could finish each others sentences, know what the other was going to do while performing without words. You know, they were really connected. After a certain time, though, this very thing began to turn them against each other. They were jealous of each other. They started wanting different things out of their lives and careers, yet expected the other to not only understand it but go along with it. It all ended in bitterness. However, they still considered each other 'brothers'. There was some little part of them that was still in each others souls. They had created something incredibly powerful together and only they knew what it was like. (enough of my dissertation on L/M) 

Now how many times did Kronos mention that there was never a 'band like us', never in all history, and things to that effect. What we are seeing of Methos is Methos 2000 years after he had last seen these people. He isn't expecting Kronos to show up when he does. We are also seeing Kronos for a very short period of time. We don't really get to see their former relationship in an extended sense. Methos has no plan. Which is exactly the way Kronos wanted it. He knew he would have to take Methos by surprise to throw him off balance. The more time there was for Methos to formulate a plan the more dangerous it became for Kronos. How many times did he mention Methos' general untrustworthiness, quite a few. I think in the Eurominutes, he actually says something to MacLeod(just as the final fight is about to start) to the effect of this ending up the way Methos really wanted it to. Thus MacLeod's question to Methos in the TAG about "You planned all this didn't you". If that is actually the case then Methos really knows how to think on his feet, because Kronos really tried to outwit Methos, but the situation ended up turning out for Methos anyway. I'm not saying it turned out exactly the way Methos wanted it to. He probably was hoping to be able to spare Silas figuring Silas would go back to the woods minding his own business as he was when they found him. In his days with the Horseman, there is no reason to think that Methos didn't know how to push Kronos' buttons as well as Kronos' pushes his. They played on each others weaknesses like two men who had long experience doing just that. Kronos played on Methos' weakness of getting attached(we have had three major examples of this so far, Duncan, Cassandra(yechh!) and 190 years ago Byron.) He even had an attachment to the Horsemen strange as it was. That's why Kronos wanted him to kill MacLeod. Methos couldn't kill the Horseman, he couldn't kill Cassandra, if he could get him to kill MacLeod because his guiding principle to survive was stronger than his attachment, then Kronos knew he had him. Long enough to reawaken that which made him a Horsemen to begin with.(See how he struggled in that scene where Kronos was talking about "the power' of it.) Methos played on Kronos bloodlust and need for power. He gave him the Four Horsemen together again. He showed Kronos his fear of him, but at the same time Methos never gave Kronos the proof that he was truly with him. 

What we are seeing in Kronos is a man who has for 2000 YRS. been trying to regain his past glory. I don't think it would have nearly as easy for Kronos to kill Methos as Kronos made it seem. If it was, why did Kronos give Methos chance after chance to "prove" himself. He let him live when he didn't kill MacLeod and broke up the fight between him. If he really wanted him dead he would stand there pointing his sword at Methos neck saying "You didn't kill MacLeod. I should kill you". He would have drawn his sword blazing and ready to fight. When Methos then said about the other two, Kronos still could have killed him. He knew they were alive now, he wasn't stupid, he could have managed to find them. After he had them and Methos went and warned MacLeod about the virus in the fountain, he had the other two horsemen now, he still didn't kill him. Then, Caspian is dead, MacLeod is at the lair and Kronos sends Methos to tell Silas to kill Cassandra(yechh!). 

He didn't kill him because he genuinely needed Methos. He could not do it without Methos, he had tried time and again to and had failed. Methos had stopped wanting and needing that life and somehow left. He may have had Kronos locked up for those 1000 yrs. like the lines cut from the original script had it. The point is, if Methos could manage to trick Kronos into the position of locking him up, than he certainly could have killed him. He had his chance, but he couldn't do it. 

I think the relationship between the two of them was much more complex than master/servant or captor/prisoner. Brotherhood really is the perfect way to describe it. People may get to the point where they won't talk to a brother, or may have him locked up(like that bomber)but how many of them would kill a brother, no matter how bad he was?  

Marg

Good Questions! 

Adrian's best & worst moments:

I think he did some of his best acting when he was working with Alexandra Vandernoot (Tessa). I'm thinking of the scene in the Gathering episode, when Duncan and Tessa talk about the ramifications of his being Immortal, the tragedies and the losses he endured as a result, and her fears of growing old while he remained young forever. Very heartfelt and touching. I also liked his scenes with Werner Stocker (Darius) in Band of Brothers and For Tomorrow we Die. Lots of subtlety there. But for me, the absolute worst bit of acting Adrian ever did was his reaction to finding Darius' body in The Hunters.

The barbarisms of Methos--

I don't think the writers downplayed what he did. They showed his cruelty and brutality for what it was. However, it was also apparent that he had subsequently changed his life, and regretted what he had done (despite the scene by the car in the parking lot when he was baiting MacLeod). I think these episodes revealed how very complex the character was, and how little we really knew about him, and how dangerous it is to make assumptions about someone. Yes, he was bad, but you have to respect how far he has come in the two millenia since then, and you can't fail to see how the Horsemen days left their scars on his psyche. 

Methos and Cassandra--

no, if it had been anyone else, it wouldn't have made any difference. I feel sorry for Cassandra, not just because she was raped, but because she can't get over it and it has poisoned her life, and made her bitter and full of hate. If she could let go of it, and forgive Methos, and most importantly, herself, her life would be better. But the Horsemen days scarred her terribly. In a way, both she and Methos were victims. These two eps just shows how each has dealt with that--Methos by running away from his past, and Cassandra by nurturing a past grudge until it took over her life.